Bush Signs Spy Bill, ACLU Sues

There goes the neighborhood.

The only thing differnt now then all other administrations. They got cought. If you think Clinton didnt do this your blind. If you think Obama wont do this then you should just off yourself now.

Speaking of Spies, I have a black SUV with 3 antennas out side my house with 2 guys in black suits with earpieces and sunglasses on and it looks to me like they are French kissing, Yuk, now I know, they are Feds! Shalom Jaye

ACLU - What no good A-holes!

Time for a lesson in Politician-ese 101:

In the sentence "protects the liberties of our citizens..."

THE WORD SAID IS: "protects"
THE WORD MEANT IS: "utterly eliminates"

Class dismissed. :)

None of these comments make sense.

zenotek: Do you really believe that past administrations had this capability? The problem now is that internet and telcom technology provides an unprecedented level of access to mass amounts of data and communication. Even if other administrations wanted to do this (which I agree that probably would have) they wouldn't have been able to. Do you really want everything you do online, every e-mail you write, every phone call you make to be recorded and examined to determine you "patriotism"? If you do then I would argue that in fact you may not be a true patriot at all.

Jaye: Why even post this? Should no one keep the Federal Government in check? Should Bush be allowed to just do what ever he wants? Where does it end, where is the line? And most importantly, what good are the constitution and freedom if people aren't allowed to disagree? This is just stupid.

None of these comments make sense.

zenotek: Do you really believe that past administrations had this capability? The problem now is that internet and telcom technology provides an unprecedented level of access to mass amounts of data and communication. Even if other administrations wanted to do this (which I agree that probably would have) they wouldn't have been able to. Do you really want everything you do online, every e-mail you write, every phone call you make to be recorded and examined to determine you "patriotism"? If you do then I would argue that in fact you may not be a true patriot at all.

Jaye: Why even post this? Should no one keep the Federal Government in check? Should Bush be allowed to just do what ever he wants? Where does it end, where is the line? And most importantly, what good are the constitution and freedom if people aren't allowed to disagree? This is just stupid.

If tyranny and opression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.

-James Madison

Oh, and Obama also voted "Yea" for this bill. FYI

To no good a-hole:

Joseph McCarthy

When will they start a government program to automatically root through our trash, too? I'm sure it would protect us from terrorists and pedophiles. Also, it might help with recycling.

Be sure to fill out form TRS-80 and itemize your trash, or the terrorists will win!

If our nation works correctly anymore the checks and balances of the courts will strike this law down.

Yeah, I got yer surveillance authority right here.

I have my own privacy policy. It supersedes all other such policies. You agree to its terms when you collect my information. I am not obligated to inform you of this policy.

If I determine, by means of my choosing and at my discretion, that you have mishandled my personal information, I will find you at a time and place convenient to me and I will seek redress.

In light of the above, you have to ask yourself one question: “Do I feel lucky today?” Well, do you?

Beat that.

There are some arenas so corrupt that the only clean acts possible are nihilistic.

So king Duh'bya now has his security grid, and the sheeple are powerless to stop it... or so he wishes.

So we can't sue the telcos or the regime for their treason, we'll take our revenge on the people of the government-telecomm complex. Hold each executive, mid-level manager, secretary, mail clerk,... even the janitors... PERSONALLY accountable. That goes for the president, vice-prez, congressman and woman, and spook. PERSONAL. Do not underestimate the politics of a bullet.

If the regular courts won't help us, then the streets will be our courts; The trigger, our lawyer; The sniper-scope, eyewitness; And each bullet, judge, jury, and executioner.

How shall I explain the dying that will be done? Shall I say that each one did the math, and wrote
The value of his days
Against the bloody margin, in an understated hand?
They will want to know How was the audit done? If asked, I shall say it was done in terms of shots fired, blood spilled, and of course, bodies buried.

The regime wants to invade our privacy out of paranoia, and the telcos out of greed. They wish to make their spying personal. We can do no less than return the "personal" invitation to revolution.

The personal, as everyone's so fucking fond of saying, is political. So if some idiot politician, some power player, tries to execute policies that harm you or those you care about, take it personally. GET ANGRY. The Machinery of Justice will not serve you here – it is slow and cold, and it is theirs, hardware and soft-. Only the little people suffer at the hands of Justice; the creatures of power slide from under it with a wink and a grin. If you want justice, you will have to claw it from them. Make it PERSONAL. Do as much damage as you can. GET YOUR MESSAGE ACROSS. That way, you stand a far better chance of being taken seriously next time. Of being considered dangerous. And make no mistake about this: being taken seriously, being considered "dangerous," marks the difference, the ONLY difference in their eyes, between players and little people. Players they will make deals with. Little people they liquidate. And time and again they cream your liquidation, your displacement, your torture and brutal execution with the ultimate insult that it's just business, it's politics, it's the way of the world, it's a tough life and that it's nothing personal. Well, FUCK THEM. MAKE IT PERSONAL.

"We are also preparing a new case against the government for its warrantless wiretapping, past, present and future," said EFF senior staff attorney Kevin Bankston, who said the details were being withheld to keep the element of surprise."

I sure hope you're 4096-bit encrypting all your communications on the new case or you won't be surprising anyone...

Welcome to the Fourth Reich. Hope you enjoy it.

Dear Senator Obama:

I regret that I cannot respond to your latest plea for funds in the same generous manner that I responded to previous solicitations. Henceforth, and for the balance of the Presidential campaign, all funds that I would have contributed to your campaign will be distributed equally between the ACLU and the EFF as they fight to overcome the tyranny for which you so blithely cast your vote in the Senate yesterday. While you still have my vote, it is largely because George W. Bush has taught me the wisdom of settling for the lesser of two evils rather than throwing away one's vote on a more desireable fringe candidate. I will, however, be vigilantly monitoring the media in case it is reported that you, too, are prone to singing to yourself about bombing Iran. In that event, I guess I'll have to decide between Ralph Nader and Ron Paul.

Sincerely,
A former gung-ho supporter, contributor, and campaigner

Death to the ACLU communist anti american treasonous dogs

You [should] not examine legislation in the light of the benefits it will convey if properly administered, but in the light of the wrongs it would do and the harm it would cause if improperly administered.

thank you ACLU for being the one entity still willing to stand up for the constitution.

Its surreal the way conservatives used to be the ones so concerned with defending our consitutional rights. They used it as a hammer against the liberals, saying that they only wanted to 'take our guns' and deprive us of rights.

Now those same people.. those ignorant, sheeple, are desecrating those same principles. They stnad up and yell when someone wants to burn the flag, then they righteously back those who spit on the consitution, the document that gives that flag its basis and meaning. They take as their champion that very man who claims the constitution is just a 'god damn piece of paper.'

That treasonous usurper isnt worth the paper its written on. ..and those who follow him literally deserve to be shot.

At least this time, as they rebid the AF Tanker project, we'll be able to learn enough to ensure it goes to Boeing.

God bless the ACLU! Shame on congress for being such cowards (and traitors) for not upholding our Constitution.

"Do not underestimate the politics of a bullet"

Quellcrist, I think you just gave me a new slogan...

Chuck Darwin, well put. Until yesterday I was actually excited for once about one of the major party candidates. By no means can I be brought to support the republican party but I will admit the fact that McCain at least didn't vote for this (didn't oppose it either but at least didn't vote for it) gives me one tiny bit of respect for him.

I often wonder what would happen if the population simply stopped acknowledging the government's existence and treated them as you would any other who offends you? I don't mean just ignoring them but to actively say "I no longer accept your governance and leadership".

I am also concerned about protection of privacy. But I don't understand why journalists in particular are concerned over this bill. They have no more to lose than anyone else, unless they are involved in illegal activities, or knowingly cooperating with sources engaged in illegal activities. In spite of Freedom of the Press, journalists are, and should be, subject to the same laws as everyone else.

Would anyone like cake?

Next In Line:
It's called revolution...and would be spiral into a our second civil war. But Americans largely are pussies so it would never gain momentum....we rather yell at eachother.

What everyone fails to realize is that you are still innocent until proven guilty. What does it matter who's watching if you're not doing anything wrong? Go ahead Congress. Scan my emails, my phone calls, my underwear drawer. I don't have anything to hide from you.

@Logic

Ever heard of the LAW? How about the "Supreme Law of the Land"? Let me spell it out for you, "con-sti-too-shun", the framework of law that binds these United States of America together. Yes the American people like their Liberty so much that they might as well pass a friggin bill to uproot and send the Statue of Liberty back to France, ever wonder how a president with a 25% approval rating gets a bill like this through the House and Senate? Simple, it is called a LACK OF REPRESENTATION and LAWLESSNESS with a BIG WAD OF OIL BLOOD MONEY from WAR PROFITEERING, YOU pay for at the pump, yeah, your a sucker, or better noted as a traitor and a fool. The warrantless wiretapping was going on 7 months BEFORE 9/11 incident that was used to justify this bill, the program was a "smashing success" you see?

Now, you understand that the president is asking of us all something he would not do himself, it's a state secret see, in a secret court, so he'd NEVER HAVE ANYTHING TO HIDE OR ANYTHING WOULD HE?, they refer to that as being "ELITE", I say CORRUPT, so "NOT ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL"

To me, this is the final blow to capitalism, it now has all it needs to self destruct, see, if you have any good business ideas, don't talk about them on the phone or email, they will be sold to someone who will patend it before you can, ever wonder who is watching the watchers? The answer is NO ONE, because it is a state secret, we all know corruption exists, to err is human, and the outcome is inevitable. This program has the potential to do more harm than terrorism could have ever done.

@Logic

Sorry, I neglected to note that the presidents activity violated the 1978 FISA already on the books, so if you wanna trust that criminal, remember, you speak for yourself.

The only way out is *Ambient Transparency*

http://evolvingtrends.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/complete-transparency-or-your-money-back/

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed.
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is in the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

Has the time come?

Well Chuck Darwin, you about it up for more than a few, and nicely at that. I think only after reading the ACLU's complaint today that I realized the deeper implications of Obama supporting this unconstitutional law. Obama is a Harvard educated lawyer. He taught Constitutional law. He voted for a law which he must understand is unconstitutional. I could understand a non-lawyer senator voting for this offal, but Obama ought to know better. I'm afraid it reflect a lack of conviction. And further, it shows he's not the smart politician some claim. Bush, though I detest him like a sickness, took many unpopular stances (pre-2004 election), and people understood and respected his conviction even if they did not agree with his view. Obama did not have to vote for this bill. People would have had no problem at all understanding a principled constitutional stand.

Yes, Obama will have my vote, but very little other support. And this long time lawyer, trained in argument, will no longer spend time fighting the good fight for Obama on the frontline by injecting reason into the political blogs. Senator Obama, Bush knew who his base was -- do you?

I had a conversation today with a few soldiers. They'd heard about this bill and were both surprised and dismayed that it actually passed into law.

When a handful of high-school graduates can look at the actions of their government and Commander in Chief, and realize that both have just flagrantly violated the Constitution, what do you think that does to their sense of loyalty, their morale and patriotism?

"I (state your name) do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."

That's the Oath of Enlistment for the armed forces. The first duty is to the Constitution, to support and defend it against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

So what is the duty of a soldier whose President has just dismissed the Constitution? It was a very interesting and very depressing conversation.

Yes. Thank you ACLU for standing up for and upholding the Constitution! Our politicians clearly cannot. I've seen a couple posts above remarking on revolution, and yes, the time has come. Operation American Freedom. We must retake this country from those political pigs, corporate panderers, radical usurpers and tyrannical traitors who have taken this country from "we the people" to whom it is supposed to belong. In the fight against terror, America has become a terrorist unto itself. The war is on.

@Gahread: Did you speak to the soldiers about how it looks as if there will be no America to come home to if these kinds of spying bills and unconstitutional debaucheries continue to occur? While they've been away, their homes have been foreclosed, their rights have been squandered, their freedom has been pawned and their privacy has been sold.

American soldiers fight and die in foreign lands to defend a country that will soon cease to exist.

Next In Line Wrote:"I don't understand why journalists in particular are concerned over this bill"

What confidential informant from overseas would be willing to report on OUR abuses overseas if they knew our government was listening? Reporters MUST always be able to use 'fully' confidential informants.

GOOD GOOD GOOD! Right on ACLU. The approved FISA legislation is a direct assault on our Constitutional freedoms. At least someone in this Country has the balls to stand up to the Bush administration.

We continually battle the choice between constitutional freedom and the need of security or Pro-active activity.

In recent years, we have developed this strong dis-trust of Gov or large Corps that display a misuse or plan abuse of their abilities. What is not in place is the ability to hold them accountable. That in itself is the main fear. It exposes a basic fundamental flaw in the attitude.

The President had to sign this Bill, we as a country have to deploy this technology on a wider scale. By doing so an overall message needs to sent - we will find you.

I'm sorry there are those of you that believe the evil is the "White House". The congress passed the bill with little disruption, a few porks on the side, but agreed with the President.

There are alot of evil people out there who want to take away all our freedoms.

All we have to do to defeat them is give up all our freedoms.

@John Feeney

It's not really a battle, the US Gov't is responsible for defending our nation, while abiding by the law, its pretty simple, they broke the supreme law of the land and put the union in jepeordy, the bad thing is, the supreme court will never see this to strike it down, its application will be in a 'secret court', this bahavior way too closely resembles a time in the past. The program may have been implemented with the best of intentions, but they say the devil is a vision in white.

@jacob

The world is in constant competition for world order, that won't change,, nothing new with exception to a batch of lazy, lawless, greedy bean counters.

Simple solution: boycott ATT (which is hard for me since they have the iphone) and Verizon. I don't have anything to hide, but privacy is fundamental for me. Being naked in front of a stranger doesn't hurt me, and I don't have anything to hide, but I sure as hell don't like it. For the same exact reason, I don't want a stranger to read my emails and listen to my conversations.

fuck congress, fuck the white house, the politicians, the lobbyists.

there are only two groups i support:
ACLU - to fight for my rights in the current system.
NRA - to help maintain my ability to protect my rights outside of the current system.

fuck congress, fuck the white house, the politicians, the lobbyists.

there are only two groups i support:
ACLU - to fight for my rights in the current system.
NRA - to help maintain my ability to protect my rights outside of the current system.

fuck congress, fuck the white house, the politicians, the lobbyists.

there are only two groups i support:
ACLU - to fight for my rights in the current system.
NRA - to help maintain my ability to protect my rights outside of the current system.

Here's a refresher for those who missed the what came out right after the NYT finally published the story in December 2005 after sitting on it since BEFORE the 2004 election.

A collection of Congressional testimony, lawsuits, and CRS reports regarding not just warrantless wiretapping by the NSA, but also warrantless surveillance and infiltration of peaceful citizen's groups by the 902nd Military Intelligence Group from Ft. Meade - the home of the NSA.

These documents were widely scattered in pdf form without links. Now this collection is in html form with links to citations and supreme court decisions. It is downloadable.

I put together 2 of the articles - Big Brother is Watching You and a follow up, both of which are collections of other coverage, with additional original content.

http://thewall.civiblog.org/ rsf/nsa.html

I hope someone uses it to fight for the reinstatement of Constitutional Law.

Cheers,
-dcm

The sworn statement of defending the constitution is the reasoning behind their jobs, fire them all, cease taxation, no taxation without representation. They just voted themselves out of a job.

@John Feeney

Funny how it's failed previously, yet this time it passes overwhelmingly. Do you really think that all of those congressmen changed their vote without some prompting from the administration? How much dirt do you think it would require for them to go directly against their constituents? With warrantless spying privilages, how difficult do you think it would be to dig up that dirt?

73% of the population disagrees with the administration to the point of disapproving of the job being done as a whole, and 4% don't know whether they like it or not, according to Bloomburg. Only 23% of the people like what has been done. It is amazing that those in such a slim minority actually think THEY are the sane ones.

"Funny how it's failed previously, yet this time it passes overwhelmingly. Do you really think that all of those congressmen changed their vote without some prompting from the administration? How much dirt do you think it would require for them to go directly against their constituents? With warrantless spying privilages, how difficult do you think it would be to dig up that dirt?"

@ORLY?, as far as conspiracy theories go yours is sounding pretty plausible.

Schoolhouse Rock taught us how a bill becomes a law, and now we know how a law becomes an unlaw. Cheers Bush:
http://www.236.com/news/2008/07/11/news_for_kids_how_a_law_stops_7665.php

Would anyone like cake?
Posted by: Drag | Jul 10, 2008 7:11:28 PM
----------------------------------------------

I heard that, these news articles have definitely made me "need a cookie".

----------------------------------------------
But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.
Has the time come?
Posted by: Cameron | Jul 10, 2008 9:53:05 PM
----------------------------------------------

I've been thinking that for a couple of years now. Nice to know I'm not just nuts, or it's not just me that's nuts, or ...

I'll give fuhrer bushit until January 2008. Any excuses to stay in office longer than that will prompt the bloodiest revolution this nation has ever seen!!!

I'm not a big fan of Bush. But it amazes me how Bush haters go from one extreme to the other, first labelling him as a bumbling idiot, and in the next breath accusing him of masterminding a conspiracy of enormous complexity. Some of you people need to get a better grasp on reality.

As I said, I don't like Bush. But I think perhaps the best campaign strategy for the Republicans in the coming election would be to interview a bunch of anti-war/anti-Bush activists, and compile it into a 30 minute documentary. You people really are not helping your cause.

@dal "I'll give fuhrer bushit until January 2008(9). Any excuses to stay in office longer than that will prompt the bloodiest revolution this nation has ever seen!!! Wow you really mean it? "The tree of liberty must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." Thomas Jefferson, Letter to William Smith [November 13, 1787]God bless America!

The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.
---Benjamin Franklin

@ Bruno

No one is claiming Bush masterminded a conspiracy of enormous complexity. More than likely one of two things occured:

1. Bush said to his cabinet/aides/good ole boys: "I want to be able to secretly spy on internet communications of American citizens to protect them" And they went to work and put it together.

2. Someone else or some other group put it together, then brought it to Bush, sold it too him, and nows hes supporting it.

In the former, his intention was relatively simply, stupid, and power hungry. In the latter, he was simply fed the right words and ideas by others more intelligent and devious than himself.

So I guess I shouldn't talk to my brother. He lives in england. I mean, we just talk about whatever, but my whatever conversations are going to be monitored?

Also, I won't be calling tech support since most likely I will be talking to someone in India or else where which will just get me into trouble for talking to someone I don't understand.

You know what? I don't do anythign wrong either. Go ahead and quarter your troops in my home. I have a spare bed and couch and even a air matress.

Wanna open my mail before it gets to me? Go ahead, those letters from my family/fiance really aren't that personal.

Wanna hear me have phone sex? Go head, I like an audience.

Heck, it worked for the Nazi's in order to police the Jews, I mean, they must have done SOMETHING wrong to deserve what they got, right? (sarcasm).

It is time to make a stand. Starting tomorrow, I will begin making my preparations.

To those who say this is a good thing, you will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.

To the others, we have come to the end of polite discourse and must now defend our rights, our families, our homes.

Long Live the Revolution!

Tim, It is called marshal law.
That is what they would do right before the Maine cowboy & his ilk kicked you door.

"I often wonder what would happen if the population simply stopped acknowledging the government's existence and treated them as you would any other who offends you? I don't mean just ignoring them but to actively say "I no longer accept your governance and leadership".

I want you to get up right now, sit up, go to your windows, open them and stick your head out and yell - 'I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Things have got to change. But first, you've gotta get mad!... You've got to say, 'I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!' Then we'll figure out what to do about the depression and the inflation and the oil crisis. But first get up out of your chairs, open the window, stick your head out, and yell, and say it: 'I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!'

Burn a flag in front of me and my country can take it. Burn a Bible in front of me and God can defend himself but burn or suspend the Constitution in front of me and I will kick your ass or die trying!

Actually, Bush didn't even sign this bill. As is clearly portrayed in the image, this is actually a robot designed to resemble Bush, designed by aliens in order to present the appearance of a real president. They are in fact just testing a part of a larger plan to replace our president with a robot clone in order to control our government and force us into war with other countries, which is part of their secret plan to make us fight each other instead of the aliens which are trying to harvest all of our brains and turn them into a giant computer for the purposes of computing the exact date of the when the universe will implode.

America is Dying, Our democracy poisoned by False Patriots who persecute the populace in to compliance under the thin, but effective veil, of "security", and the need to destroy terrorism that threatens our society. But while the thought of Americans actually dipping in the cookie jar to aid our ailing government and wash her anew with the fresh and boiling blood of an American revolution sound comforting, it ultimately wont happen. the people will do nothing the govt has them right where they want us. America will fall, but I for one will make sure that I will survive and avoid being crushed by her corpse. What happens after, what will stand on her corpse, responsible for a fall far greater than that of the Roman Empire, is something of great curiosity. Of course if these events were to occur it would be long after our time. But even if our fateful piece of american pie becomes the only solution, who will really stand by you? Such situations always consist a few standing firm on solid ground, fighting day and night against an hordes of false patriots who control the endless ocean that is the institution. Ordinary people take for granted how our forefathers suffered and fought to bring us where we are, they are so concerned with their own lives to know our laws and barely even grasp the power that the forefathers gave them, and even cookies have the risk of putting a despot in power. But if Americans can raise their voices to their injustices and say "No more", then maybe the future is worth fighting for.

the aclu will win and justice will be given. otherwise it is out rights as citizens to overthrow the government!

Oh, people, have you not yet learned? Bush and many of the Vulcans (yes, there is a group so named, of which Bush and many in the cabinet are members) are quite focused, in personal behavior and in policy, on eschatological timing. Given that, they are not crazy to back this measure; after all, if God knows what is in our hearts and minds, surely government has a right to know what is in our voice mails and inboxes, right?

More seriously, though, have any of you who oppose this law taken the time to consider the alternative? I do not mean the U.S. without the law, but the U.S. with the law that otherwise might have passed? We are talking of one that had already won approval in the Senate before, one far more draconian. With time running low on some previous sunset provisions, something was going to be passed, but what the outlines of that something would be were unknown before. Given the shapes of the other options out there, I am relatively pleased.

Besides, those constitutional arguments in the ACLU's case may well carry the day. The court, as much as it may lean to the right more than in times past, is no great friend of this administration, and it certainly does not want to see too much power in the hands of another branch of government, lest its own balancing power be curtailed in the future.

The Telecom portion of the bill is the MOST offensive part. (Retroactive Immunity). When you are asked to break the law, by a government official, and then said official changes the law to suit said officials own needs, impeachment should follow.

So this is how liberty dies... to thunderous applause! - Star Wars

if ya wanna keep yer eMail confidential use PGP

nuff said

"In spite of Freedom of the Press, journalists are, and should be, subject to the same laws as everyone else."

Absolutely. As a journalist, I agree 100 percent. But anything in this law that can be used to hamper a journalists work can also be used against a private citizen. Sometimes, it's just the journalist who notice this sort of thing first.

"Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don't fall out of the sky. They don't pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain't going to do any good; you're just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it's not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here... like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There's a nice campaign slogan for somebody: 'The Public Sucks. F*ck Hope.'" - George Carlin

Obama and his advisers are fully aware that what they lose in Democratic party base voters they will more than gain in Independents and Republicans for this vote.

It is precisely because the Democratic base will not hold Obama accountable and will not refuse to vote for him over this that he has been able to vote Yes for the bill. If more Americans were unwilling to vote for the lesser of 2 evils and were unwilling to vote for Obama after this, his pollsters would have learned this and he would have been forced to vote No on the bill.

The public sucks, you guys have no one to blame but yourselves.

I got a little tired of reading the responces so I don't know if this has been touched upon; the whole cycle-thing?

McCarthyism eventually led to a counterculture which in turn led to "those damned hippies." Seems like we're headed that way again - anyone care to postulate how the new counterculture will take shape to rebel against this new (dare I say it?)oppression?

We've already done the drugs and burned the bras . . . maybe massive and delibrate routing of e-traffic across borders to overpower the governments filtering systems will be part of the coming cultural response. However, one person's rebel is another person's terrorist. I'd hate to have the States watch dogs label me a terrorist (hell-o Gitmo!).

If technology existed that allowed the government to monitor every thought and read every memory in our brains, our government WOULD DO IT. It wasn't always like this. Power corrupts and our government has excessive power.

Regular people have nothing to fear from this. They are interested in the big money people, whether they are planning terror attacks or to hurt us in other ways economic. I applaud their efforts, and hope they can get the economy back on track.

Wow there is a LOT of paranoia in these comments. What are you people up to? If it were me in charge I would track each and every one of you down to find out why you are acting so crazy.

We cooperate fully with all legal requests for information.

You all need to consider that Obama had things explained to him and that he is man enough to change his views when necessary.

The congress shall not pas any ex post facto law.

Those people are not fit to be in office! Anyone who voted Yea should be charged with a felony. Vote Bob Barr!

Next shipment from North Korea or Pakistan to Iran, we should take out the nuke materials and put in cigarettes instead. Hee-hee!

these measures have been set for over hundreds of years, only time will reveal the truths of our world wide ignorance.

None of your lives are going to change one bit with this bill, you nation of whiners. Unless you're advancing terroristic ideologies in your messages, you have nothing to worry about. Quit listening to Alex Jones. Your minds are begging to rot.

@ All You Idiots

The 4th Amendment to the Constitution requiring probable cause to obtain a warrant to conduct a search, Separation of powers, Presidents breaking the law, Companies breaking the law being subject to lawsuits by their customers, why do so few of you consider this important?

You idiots are more concerned with posters motivations for not wanting to be spied upon than the very foundations of our government being cut away by this bill.

What the hell is wrong with so many of you?

See my George Carlin quote, the public does suck and I am talking to almost all of you.

Rant time, my blood's boiling. IMHO, The ACLU has done some dumb stuff in the past, but if they're trying to break the back of this ludicrious law, I will happily give them my full support and the hard earned cash that, until recently, I had intended for Obama.
@Chuck Darwin: Brilliantly said. But truth be told, since Obama and McCain are (unfortunately) identical on all the issues that matter to me, I've got nothing to lose. Unless Obama performs an act of epic repentance before November, I intend to vote Ron Paul.
@Various gun-toting revolutionaries: Some of you are probably trolling. But frankly, even though I'm a lifelong democrat, I've been taking good care of my firearms recently.
@pro Obama (or others of the same mindset): By all means, post a link to Obama's explanation of this vote. If he has a REALLY good reason for supporting this bill, I MAY just give him my vote. But my wallet stays closed.
@Spinmonkey (and others of the same mindset): "It doesn't affect me, so I don't care." Do us all a favor and don't vote. Whoever ends up president probably won't affect your life, so why should you bother?

Axiomatic:

"No one is claiming Bush masterminded a conspiracy of enormous complexity. More than likely one of two things occured:

1. Bush said to his cabinet/aides/good ole boys: "I want to be able to secretly spy on internet communications of American citizens to protect them" And they went to work and put it together.

2. Someone else or some other group put it together, then brought it to Bush, sold it too him, and nows hes supporting it. "

Well, I suppose the conspiracy would be the part where he convinces nearly everyone in Congress to vote for the bill (or so the theory goes), even though he's generally considered to be a lame duck already, with very little political influence left. Even though he's failed miserably in most of his other political endeavors, i.e. Social Security reform, immigration reform.

Yet somehow, in this case, Bush was, beyond all reason, finally able to manipulate his underground network of secret police to achieve his hidden agenda.

The very thought flies in the face like a blind drunken sparrow.

The fact is this: Members of Congress voted for this bill because they believe it's in the interest of their nation, and it's in line with the wishes of their constituents.

To oppose this bill is American. To blame it on Bush is absolute lunacy.

I think that it is a wise move, to help stop terrorists from getting into the United States, and to expose any that are already inside. As long as it doesn't get out of hand, I think it is a wise decision by our President.

I like "if you're doing nothing wrong this won't effect you."

But what if you order something from Amazon, Dell or other on-line retailer. You deal with an overseas agent of those companies. That can be spied on.

Now because you ordered the item out of state you didn't pay sales/use tax on it. Nor do you report your purchase on your income tax.

Well seems there's enough evidence there to get you for tax evasion on a state level. All collected by the US government, and distributed to the states to keep their "criminal populations" in check.

This is very much a writ of assistance. Which is what the 4th amendment was specifically against. Attorney general has power to tap communication for a week without review, can enlist the help of third parties who are granted immunity. FISA court has approval/denial capabilities but only have to report their traffic in requests. The only person who can oppose them (the telecom) has been completely bought off with immunity... there's no incentive in even questioning them.

I'm not sure there is any limitation on the use of information gained through these procedures, so I think they could be passed on to other legal entities. Anyone can confirm this?

Pray the ACLU will prevail. Do not underestimate the depth of evil flowing from reactionaries plump with cash from seven years of pilfering.

@JHB:
"Death to the ACLU communist anti american treasonous dogs"

Heh. You're an idiot.

This all began with CALEA. There is nothing new here. It was CALEA that allowed ATT to connect the taps. It was CALEA that causes phone companies to quake in their boots when the feds ask them to do things. CALEA is where this all began. It has taken them 13 years but now they finally made it legal.

The Neo-Cons are slowly disassembling the checks and balances put in place by the founders of this nation. They are destroying what is probably the most important document ever conceived of by mankind. They are making billions of dollars for the Texas Oil Companies and putting everyone else out of work. The American public has lost it's ability to purchase and own a home, to get an education or to get health care. They have started numerous wars all with felicitous or felonious intentions. They are destroying this nation.

The good people of the United States have for far too long had their affairs seen to by greedy felons. We have stood by while the C.I.A. and other supposed secret agencies have gone cavalierly around the world and done their best to ruin and destroy emerging nations. While they install brutal dictators who then rain violence down upon their own people. All to make sure that the oil will flow and supposedly to protect the nations security.

The people of these nations do not like the dictators and they do not forget who installed them there and who sells them the weapons and then stands by as they are used on them. They also see that the united states cannot be trusted and that they will invade them and hang these men for using the weapons that they have sold to them. No care is given to the people of these nations or to the people of the world. The only care is for money and oil. The people of the world observe this and take note, they judge us just as surely as we judge them.

We have essentially become a rogue nation. Controlled by the duplicitous stooges of greedy corporations. But we should not forget that the seeds ye sow, so shall ye also reap. That every action has an equal and opposite reaction. You cannot invade and kill and destroy and expect that will be the end of it. These people don't have atomic weapons, but frankly they don't need them. Anything can be used as a weapon. You cannot stem the tide of aggression when the whole world turns against you.

America's chickens will indeed come home to roost.

This is a systemic failure on a government wide scale. If they do not see this or they refuse to address this and instead seek to impose more and more draconian laws against their own people. Then the Constitution is clear on what should be done. The Constitution was drawn up by admirable men and it is being destroyed by greedy worthless fools.

Ultimately a people will get the government that they deserve.

The people that try to spread fear with their talk of civil war are simply using the tools of disinformation to try and derail any discussion of what is really going on. The numbers don't support civil war, they support revolution. There are many people that fear that there will not be a peaceful transition of power, but instead we will witness something bloody and dramatic. An american Crystal night and the unlawful imposition of martial law. There are many people that would willingly fight to protect the constitution and the united states from this sort of internal enemy.

Death by a thousand tiny cuts.

The true american patriots are standing against this and this bill is but one of the battles that are being fought to defend our freedoms and our liberties. The complete failure of leadership, the lack of an economic policy that works, the recession and the obscene profits being made by the few (and which are promptly shipped off to Dubai). The dollar turning into worthless pieces of paper. The belief that violence and meddling in the affairs of sovereign nations are good policies. It's all wrong. It will be the downfall of this nation. Either by civil war, by revolution or death by a thousand tiny cuts. This is what you have created and the blood is on your hands whether you see it or not and whether you care about it or not.

A pitiful legacy for a once great nation and former beacon of hope for the oppressed people around the world.

There's a bit of truth to all the Bush=Dork cartoons going around, see, if the customers ain't got any money, they ain't gonna be sellin any oil. -Idiots.

On the other hand, though it is a huge stretch, one could see their might be method to the madness, however, giving these tools to an honest gov't might be useful in protecting the citizens, now where would one find an honest gov't? The answer is a world that doesn't have a monetary system. Another thing to consider is one giving such tools to a gov't such as the U.S. is giving capitalism the ingredients to fall under it's own weight, a few hundred times more damage than terrorism could have ever done on it's own.

Neocon, schmeocon. You people are brainwashed. CALEA was instituted by Bill Clinton.

It is the paleocons that you really need to look out for! --- You people commenting really don't have any idea what is really going on. --- It appears to be a religious issue to you. And the truth is that both parties have caused this mess. It is not the president, and it isn't bill clinton. it is the system.

It is the paleocons that you really need to look out for! --- You people commenting really don't have any idea what is really going on. --- It appears to be a religious issue to you. And the truth is that both parties have caused this mess. It is not the president, and it isn't bill clinton. it is the system.

It is the paleocons that you really need to look out for! --- You people commenting really don't have any idea what is really going on. --- It appears to be a religious issue to you. And the truth is that both parties have caused this mess. It is not the president, and it isn't bill clinton. it is the system.

@real american;longer memory

Err, pot/kettle?

Hey, @real american, I remember reading your post when you posted under the name @longer memory.

@real american with a longer memory, no, it does NOT appear to be a religious issue to most of us who've posted, it appears to be a constitutional issue by my reckoning. But you are right, it IS the system, and although many could argue Bill Clinton abused it ... or not, whatever, I don't care ... it is Bush who appears to have done obscene things with the corrupt system that we appear to have for the moment.

To clarify my statement "it is Bush who appears to have done obscene things", I'm generally referring to President Bush and much of his administration - not just the one man (to another poster's point, I don't think he is really smart enough to put together a dictatorship all by himself).

@SteveR:

"I sure hope you're 4096-bit encrypting all your communications on the new case or you won't be surprising anyone..."

- do a little research on the EFF and you might not need to question their awareness of security tech...

@gnutcase

Yeah, I'm sure he's aware, now all we gotta do is stop outsourcing the work to install this surveillance equipment to India, then we might actually get a call through that they can monitor.